Firefighter Hourly

Special: IC, Routley, Patience

Tonight we discuss:

Routley Report Part III - IC Lessons Tactics

Patience

Way Forward


MP3 File

Venting the Roof: May 17

Topics:

Mayor Blames Store Owner

Council Uproar

Mayor Reverses Stance

Routley's Comments On Charleston

Chief's Begin To Leave

Fire Chief and A Civic Leader

Future Holds Great Promise

Firefighter Hourly In Harrisburg, Pa.

Changes to Hourly


MP3 File

Gordon Routley Quotes From Yesterday On Charleston Fire Department

J. Gordon Routley spoke with Ron Menchaca and Glenn Smith of the Post & Courier and his comments will become a permanent part of Firefighter Hourly. Here are some comments made by Mr. Routley:

Routley said all of the factors and circumstances at the fire occur regularly at fire scenes across America. "There is a fire like this somewhere in the U.S. every week."

Next:

"Unfortunately, Chief Thomas was out of touch with the mainstream of what was going on in the fire service for the last 30 years or so," he said. "It was hard for me to understand how he was unaware of a lot of this or discounted this."

Next:

The Fire Department long boasted of its Class 1 ranking from the Insurance Services Office, which is used to calculate business and home fire insurance premiums. This gave the community a false sense of security, Routley said.

In reality, he said, the ISO rating is an "antiquated system for looking at fire departments," based mainly on accessibility to water. He said the rating system's usefulness as a measure of a fire department's expertise and capabilities went out of style with disco.

Next:

The panel witnessed problems in Charleston firsthand the very first day when members began their work, in August. They had expected a more advanced fire department in a city of Charleston's size. Yet they watched as city firefighters swarmed head-long into a house to fight fire with undersized hoses, no clear strategy and no formal command structure in place, Routley said.

Next:

Panel members had planned to spend weeks studying the department's practices. "We said 'There is stuff going on here that we need to do something about right now.' "

Next:

Eleven months after the sofa store fire, Routley still has concerns about how the Fire Department would approach a blaze of that magnitude it if occurred today.

"It takes commitment at the top," he said. "I really think the department needs someone with vision of what the fire service needs to be today."

Charleston: Second Thomas Retires; Council Erupts; Mayor Places Blame

Battalion Chief Tommy Thomas, brother of Fire Chief Rusty Thomas, announced his intention to retire. This is the first in what many believe to be wholesale change at the top of the department.

Charleston City Council members erupted at the handling of the Sofa Super Store tragedy. Council Member Tim Mallard is the most vocal but the majority support the theory that Mayor Riley has kept them out of the loop.

Mayor Joe Riley placed the blame for the deaths of nine firefighters on the shoulders of Sofa Super Store owner Herb Goldstein. Refusing to place any blame on his Chief, at the center of a damning indictment of fire department operations, Riley instead focused on the permitted work done reportedly done by the Sofa Super Store.

The Post & Courier duo of Ron Menchaca and Glenn Smith reported the above in today's Post & Courier.

Special: Routley at St. Andrews, South Lynche

Gordon Routley and his panel of experts delivered another presentation-this time to St. Andrews Firefighters. We discuss the presentation and we discuss South Lynches Fire Department.


MP3 File

Routley Report: Supply Lines Were Too Small, Boosters Were Used

The Routley Report discusses water supply issues in great detail. The  City of Charleston supply lines couldn't provide enough water to combat the fire in the incipient, or beggining, stages of the fire. Page 98 of the Routley report points out only one line handline was operating at the critical point in the fire and it was producing a limited waterflow capability.

Despite the City stating their supply lines were large enough they bought LDH and each engine is now capable of moving water. The purchase was directed by the Phase One Routley report.

There were also denials about the use of booster lines but NIOSH and the Routley report point out the use of booster lines. One downtown engine company advanced the booster into the showroom. Page C-26 discusses the use. A second booster line was pulled from Engine 10 and used in their struggle to contain the fire on the loading dock.

No where is it stated firefighters used the booster lines for lifelines, as had been previously suggested.

Comment By Family Member Randy Hutchinson

Randy Hutchinson, brother of Captain Billy Hutchinson, left a comment on the blog this morning worth highlighting:

I agree, Rusty Thomas did nothing to improve himself or bothered to bring his dept up to anything beyond ISO-1 standards.  Just wondering if the dept. met those standards straight-up. 

He spent most of his time spying on his men creating a divide all along.  He feared people with brains and surrounded himself with people he could control.  He got that trait from somewhere. 

He spent much time doing community service and booster club activities.  While honorable, he should have spent his time wisely to learn Basic Fire Service Chief duties. He elected not to and laughed at other local dept's that started to move forward before he became chief.  Nothing changed unless he had his hands all over it.  `

I find it sickening that he states to the City Council that no person will ever know what happened in that fire inside the SSS.  I do not believe that he thinks that one small thing could have changed the outcome.  He still thinks it was plain ole bad luck. 

He was sitting there and rejecting what the Routley Panel was telling him.  Stubborn, maybe, Stupid, probably, In denial, definitely.   I am glad that the era of the Thomas family curse has finally left the top command positions of the CFD.  If anyone disagee's, one might want to re-read this paragraph and take a moment of silence for thought.  What a way to treat one's, "nine best friends."

Lack of "Truck" Work Contributed To Sofa Super Store Fire

The late Tom Brennan loved truck work. As the editor of Fire Engineering, Brennan never hesitated to extoll the virtues of putting truckies to work to effect ventilation, perfrom rescues and conduct salvage and overhaul. If ever there was a patron saint of truckies, Tom Brennan is looking down on all truck company personnel.

In Charleston trucks were widely used in their traditional roles until the early nineties. Then they became what one officer described as "taxis", a vehicle used to bring manpower to the scene. This attitude, and the lack of training and emphasis on truck company functions is a contributing factor in  the sofa super store tragedy.

On page 129 the panel notes the first due ladder operated as an engine company. This prevented vertical ventilation from being performed early in the fire.

Further, in discussions with this author, the lack of truck work, including forcible entry, left firefighters assigned to the truck feeling as though they weren't valued members of the department.

Now, in the wake of June 18, 2007, some truck company firefighters have devoted themselves to learning truck company tactics. In the near future, truck work will become a source of pride for Charleston firefighters.

IAFF Statement On Routley Report

Washington, DC – International Association of Fire Fighters General President Harold Schaitberger issued this statement today following the release of the Phase II report of the Charleston Post Incident Assessment and Review Team.

"Last June 18, nine of Charleston’s bravest were killed in the line of duty. This report, with its sobering and powerful conclusions, is sure to rekindle justifiably strong emotions related to the deaths of the Charleston Nine.

“This union’s biggest concern now is for the future and the safety of the tenth family in the June 18 tragedy – the fire fighters of Charleston who are still on the job.

“Massive changes have been recommended in earlier reports by the Fire Review Team, and even more changes will be apparent once we absorb the compelling facts in this new report. It is now our job to make sure those changes are being legitimately and effectively completed as quickly as possible. The original conclusions drawn by South Carolina OSHA and the subsequent settlement agreement signed by the City contain clear, mandated commitments that must be tracked and verified.

“The IAFF and Local 61 will continue to commit the necessary resources and time, working in partnership with the City, to ensure that all of the necessary safety improvements, at every level, occur in a timely fashion and that they are up to the standards set by Mayor Riley – which is to ensure that the Charleston Fire Department becomes a model for safe and effective fire operations going forward.

The IAFF is the world’s largest fire fighters union, representing 288,000 fire fighters and emergency medical professionals across the United States and Canada.

The Building: Inspections and Pre-Plans

The last routine fire inspection by the fire inspectors on the Sofa Super Store was performed in 1998. This author was the last fire inspector to do a routine inspection of the structure. At the time fire inspectors for the City numbered three. The author left the City in 2000. In the intervening nine (1998-2007) years no other inspections were reportedly performed on the structure. However, this isn't the fault of city workers-a change was made that eliminated the need for routine inspections of mercantile properties.

[Note: WCBD reporter Brad Franko reported this author was a Charleston Fire Department Fire Inspector. This is innaccurate. Fire Inspectors in the City of Charleston are part of the Building Department. Further, despite standing in front of the reporter tonight at City Council Chambers, he never asked for a comment. Other media asked about the inspection. ]

In an interview with the Post & Courier, Laura Cabiness, who oversees Public Services for the City and is in charge of the building department where fire inspectors are located, gave an interview to the Post & Courier:

The city had not done a fire code inspection of the building since 1998, around the time Charleston adopted a new statewide building code that did not require annual inspections of commercial properties.

“We were still doing large numbers of fire inspections, but we were not doing random inspections,” Cabiness said. “We did the inspections we were required to do.”

She said the city is developing a plan to resume random inspections.

The Fire Department did conduct planning visits to the Sofa Super Store property, but did not look for code violations.

“This is about lessons learned and doing things better in future,” Cabiness said. “We have hired a chief fire inspector, which was a position we did not have before, and we are hiring more fire inspectors.”

Pre-plans were conducted by firefighters a number of times leading up to June 18, 2007. However, as pointed out by Gordon Routley in his report to the City Council, there existed no way for firefighters to pull up the data en route to a call. This isn't the fault of firefighters-they simply didn't have the equipment made available to them.

Special: Routley Presentation to Council

We discuss Gordon Routley's presentation, the Routley Report and Why No One Spoke Up For the Nine At Council


MP3 File

Inside Routley Press Conference

Gordon Routley is presenting the report to the public along with Mayor Joe Riley.

The mayor stated the report would be in every firehouse in America.

Chief Routley discussed the report with
City council in depth. More in a podcast tonight.
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless handheld

Routley Report Details Failures Beyond What Was Previously Thought

In reviewing the report issued by Gordon Routley it is stunning to read the details of June 18, 2007. From the incipient stage of the fire, command was non-existent with the exception of the first due battalion chief.

The actions contained within the report are much worse than initially though. Simply put, there is no way to sugar coat the findings. In relation to the Routley Report, the NIOSH report is but an addendum. (NIOSH's report is professional-this is commenting on the length)

From page 134 of the report:

The Charleston Fire Department was inadequately staffed, inadequately trained, insufficiently equipped, and organizationally unprepared to conduct an operation of this complexity...

From Page 96:

He (Assistant Chief) did not formally assume command of the incident or establish a fixed command post.

Also from page 96:

The fire chief became directly involved in supervising tactical operations in the vicinity of the loading dock and the warehouse during the critical phase of the incident. This should not be the role of the Incident Commander.

From Page 99:

The decision to switch from offensive to defensive strategy should have been made early enough to allow the firefighters who were operating inside the showrooms to withdraw safely.

Routley Report Podcast

The report is hard hitting. We offer analysis on the report during this podcast.


MP3 File

Routley Report Released; Podcast Will Be Up in 1 hour

The Post & Courier obtained a copy of the Routley Report. The idea was to allow Charleston firefighters to get the report and then release it. Obviously that didn't occur.

Venting the Roof: May 15

Topics:

Routley Report Extensive

Addressing the Fire Chief's Retirement

Interim Chief

What Happens To Other Command Officers

Help Is Available

Firefighter Hourly Staying


MP3 File

Post & Courier Article Must Reading

The team of Menchaca and Smith have provided excelletn articles over the past 11 months. Today Brian Hicks wrote an article touching on the many aspects related to the fire chief. Read the article here.

Here is an excerpt:

But even the men who think Thomas brought this on himself by not ordering more training, by not upgrading equipment, have regrets. They say Thomas would have been a hero if, on that night, he had said "To hell with the furniture, get my men out of there." But hindsight's easy. It doesn't change anything.

Still, even Thomas' fiercest critics could not help but be saddened by the way things have gone down for a fellow firefighter.

Unfortunately, one said, this is his legacy. More than three decades of service will be forever overshadowed by one horrible night.

Who Is Next? Will Other Command Staff Follow Chief's Lead?

Firefighters are wondering who the next person to retire from the city fire department will be. After the announcement by the Fire Chief today, speculation turned to the interim chief and who will leave next.

A number of command officers had close ties with the Fire Chief. His presence shielded them from public scrutiny but after the release of todays Phase II report, will the spotlight come down on other fireground commanders since the Fire Chief is now out of the loop? No longer able to blame the chief for training will the spotlight turn to others who were responsible?

Others are worried about "lame duck" appointments. Will there be promotions and transfers in the last 40+ days by the outgoing chief. Will a new chief have to tackle reversing those decisions?

A number of firefighters are asking if the decision to promote new battalion chiefs should be put off to allow the new chief to administer a testing and evaluation process. No firm answers are at hand as the situation is very fluid.

What is certain is movement forward.

Charleston Firefighters Ready For Challenges

City of Charleston firefighters will meet all future challenges. This was part of the message delivered by Mayor Joe Riley at a news conference yesterday at city hall.

The mayor discussed briefly the implementation of the Phase I reccomendations. While the department has implemented some of the reccomendations it is felt among firefighters the rest of the process will take place with renewed energy and committment.

Firefighters spoke of the future optimistically although quite a few are worried about the choice of an interim chief. They feel the right choice is to pick the person with the right level of training and with no personal attachments to the department. Mayor Riley said he will make his choice soon.

Where Is Firefighter Hourly Going?

The statement by a local fire captain, not in the Charleston Fire Department, that Firefighter Hourly would shut down as soon as the fire chief retired has been causing laughter for a few days. In fact, we are not going anywhere because the issue is larger than one person or one department.

While our coverage of Charleston has been extensive this is the first step in a long process. In addition, Firefighter Hourly is committed to helping other departments around the country. Further, we stated when Charleston started to address culutral issues we would support the city effort. We will do as we promised.

Routley Report Due Today

Gordon Routley will release the phase II report later today. The report details the tragic events of June 18, 2007.

Routley and members of his panel have spent considerable time on the report and have endured criticism from some people, including this author. Some of the criticism was generated by the grief people feel and by anger at the situation.

Firefighter Hourly will provide updates throughout the day.

IAFF Releases Statement On Chief Thomas

International Association of Fire Fighters General President Harold Schaitberger issued this statement today following the retirement announcement of Charleston Fire Chief Rusty Thomas.

"This International union and our Local 61 in Charleston are single-minded in our work for real change in the training, policy, command and operating procedures of the Charleston Fire Department so that what happened last June 18 never happens again. We are entirely focused on the 240 men and women who serve the city under the most dangerous of circumstances, and who deserve to be provided the training, tools, staffing and resources needed to do their job safely and effectively.

We look forward to working with Mayor Riley and the new leadership team at CFD that will carry forward the massive changes that have begun in the Department and that will lead it safely into the future.”

Mayors Press Conference

The mayor discussed the chiefs contributions and said a new search would take ninety to one hundred and twenty days. The mayor said he did not try to talk the chief out of retirement.
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless handheld

Breaking: Charleston Chief Retires

We discuss the retirement of the Charleston Fire Chief.

Moving forward and What We Can Do

Comment Policy


MP3 File

City of Charleston Press Release

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: May 14, 2008

Mayor Joseph P. Riley Jr. announced today that Tuesday afternoon Fire Chief Russell B. “Rusty” Thomas came to see him, and at that meeting Chief Thomas presented a letter to the Mayor expressing his decision to retire from the Charleston Fire Department effective June 27, 2008. Chief Thomas’s letter and the Mayor’s response to him are attached.

Chief Thomas is a third generation Charleston firefighter, and has served as a member of the department since June of 1976. He has served as Chief since 1992.

Charleston Fire Chief Thomas Retires According To Firefighters

According to firefighters Charleston Fire Chief Rusty Thomas announced he was retiring earlier today.

The Chief will retire effective June 27, 2008.

Charleston Prepares For Report; Big Mouth,Small Man; Race Enters Into Discussions

Citizens and firefighters are preparing for the Routley Report, due to be released on may 15, 2008. It is expected to be released to the famiies, then firefighters and finally the public. There's little doubt it will be emotional especially given the expected content of the report.

When someone with a big mouth runs it you can always find near unanimous agreeement the person is worthless. Yet, said person is the last to know it.

Minority firefighters on the Charleston Fire Department are discussing ways to bring their story to the attention of the public in the future. They will find willing ears both locally and nationally.

Blog Note: A regular posting schedule will resume at 1400 today. We will continue to blog throughout the next 48 hours as we disect the forthcoming Routley Report.

Comment Policy Now In Place

It has become apparent some people are less than cooperative when it comes to being civil. Arguing about subjects is one thing. Expressing your views is fine. However, despite pleas about maintaining a level of civility, people are still using comments to attack people rather than issues.

To maintain the validity of the blog a new comment policy is now instituted.  Please refrain from using profanity and use your best judgement about what you post. You are responsible for your posts but we will ban those not following these simple rules.

Open Post Tuesday

Feel free to discuss any issue but keep it civil.

Ten Steps The Mayor Can Take To Help Heal The Fire Department

Here are ten steps the Mayor of Charleston can take to attempt to heal the fire department and make it better:

1. Awknowledge the failure of command on June 18, 2007.
2. Have the current Fire Chief and three other officials with direct impact on training and operations retire or face dismissal.
3. Announce a nation wide search for a Fire Chief with previous experience running a department of Charleston's size or larger.
4. Appoint two positions to be filled from the outside: Assistant Chief in Charge of Operations and Assistant Chief of Administration.
5. Implement all Routley Panel Reccomendations
6. Stop the current Battalion Chief selection and hire an outside firm to come in and do the promotions.
7. Join with area departments to build and staff a regional training facility.
8. Join area departments in consolidated communications.
9. Appoint a panel of citizens and firefighters to examine how the department can move forward.
10. Appoint a panel of firefighters and council members to upgrade the benefits and compensation packages of Charleston firefighters

Former Charleston Firefighter Talks About NIOSH Report, Lack Of Change

Matt Thomson, a former Charleston firefighter, spoke with the media last night. According to those who saw the report, Matt discussed the inaccurate portrayal of what NIOSH said firefighters in Charleston receive as training.

The NIOSH Draft stated Charleston firefighters have NFPA I and II prior to being assigned to a unit. This is overwhelmingly incorrect. Charleston firefighters in the future will have to possess both but as of now they do not and prior to June 18, 2007 the requirements were non existent.

In addition Matt noted the lack of change at the top levels of the department.

Normally we like to offer readers a chance to see the story live but we were unaware the story was being run. In fact, I am unsure what station it appeared on. If anyone knows, send me an email and I will put up the link.

Venting the Roof: May 12

Topics:

St. Johns Performs During Tornado

NIOSH Warning On Aerial Trucks

NIOSH Draft Report on Charleston (Correction)

Training Videos Pick Up New Interested Parties

Fold The Shop Into City Garage Picks Up Steam

1.5 Booster reels but what is the plumbing size-Did they Change It?

Thoughts forwarded to Mayor, Routley Panel


MP3 File

NIOSH Releases Urgent Bulletin For Pinned Waterways

NIOSH has released a bulletin about the dangers one will encounter with pinnable waterways. One firefighter was killed when the waterway fell during a fire, striking him.

Read the NIOSH Bulletin Here.

The number one item is for department to make sure SOP/SOG's point out the steps to take when using the aerial. For departments without SOP's or SOG's you have a huge problem.

Collective Bargaining Needs Your Support

Collective Bargaining is coming to the floor of the Senate on May 13. Please contact your US Senator and ask them to support the bill. For too long, especially in the South, we have been unable to discuss items with Mayors and other officials.

Contact your Senator via this link: US Senate

Chief's Words Still Cause Anger. Culture Change Is Needed

It's been over ten months since the Charleston Fire Chief began making comments, outraging  Charleston firefighters, national fire service leaders and embarrassing the City. While some have tried to bury the comments the Mayor will now answer for them since Chief Thomas is not allowed to do open press conferences.

Talking to citizens one is asked what we mean by cultural problems. Take a look back at these comments made by the Fire Chief in the months after the Sofa Super Store:

• Charleston Fire Chief Rusty Thomas said Friday that he does not know whether his department's policies mirror federal and state guidelines for managing a fire scene. "I don't know," he said. "I know we have our own."

• "I'm just going to let you know we have our own incident command system. We have it written that the highest-ranking official is automatically in charge. I don't care how it is anyplace else."

• "Our firefighting techniques are not going to change in the city of Charleston Fire Department,"

• "We're safe, we've got the best equipment, we've got the best people and that's the way we fight fires," he said.

• "That's the tradition that's been carried on in the city of Charleston Fire Department since time was time," Fire Chief Rusty Thomas said. "Are we going to let someone's property burn? No, sir."

• "We come from a long line of traditional firefighting, and we are never going to get away from that — never," Thomas said. "You can't read out of a book how to put a fire out. You have to go out there and do it, and that's what we do."

What can we take away from these comments? Certainly the Chief was adamant about doing it the "Charleston Way." Now, ten months later, we are told publicly he supports all the new measures taken to bring the department up to minimum standards. However, firefighters paint a different picture of the Chief, several of the Assistant Chiefs and a number of Battalion Chiefs.

Apparently the changes don't please these men. Comments made to firefighters indicate a willingness to do it this way until the attention dies down. Then it will revert to the old ways. There's a problem with that line of thought though.

The attention isn't going away. In fact, it is increasing and a multitude of people now wish to observe the Charleston Fire Department. Those advocating a return to the "Charleston Way" don't get it. Know your role. You are no longer thought of as wise or experienced. The men see through you and laugh when you walk off.

The major change still left undone is cultural. When it occurs the department will have advanced forward.

• "The booster has its place in the Charleston Fire Department, and it's up to our captains on the truck to pull whatever size hose they think is needed to put the fire out," Thomas said. "That's the way we do it."

Firefighters Mull Ways To Let Feelings Be Known

In a sign that can't make the Mayor happy firefighters are starting to look past union-non union and discuss the need for wholesale change at the top of the Charleston Fire Department. Some are saying Spoleto is the perfect opportunity to mingle with tourists and let t-shirts do the talking.

The IAFF wants change at the top as do community members and other elected officials. The latter keep saying the time is nearing for them to call on the Mayor to compel the chief to leave. Still, firefighters are frustrated by the delay believing every day is yet another opportunity for disaster to strike yet again.

Despite the different angles, firefighters agree change must occur shortly.

Venting the Roof: May 11

Topics:

Facts Are Stubborn

Mutual Aid Department Speaks Out

NIOSH Report Part II

The "Magic 19 Minutes" the Mayor Is trying to Use

The "Chemicals", Arson and other ways attention is trying to be put elsewhere

Playing the other side


MP3 File

Sofa Super Store Fire: Facts Can't Be Spun, Fire Was Command Disaster

The fire chief and Mayor may take liberties with the facts but the community of firefighters is fully aware of the horrific strategic and tactical decisions, plus a lax safety culture, and how they contributed to the outcome.

Janet Wilmoth gave an interview to the Post & Courier and stated:

Janet Wilmoth, editorial director for Fire Chief magazine, has known the six-member city panel for years and expects that the group will deliver an honest report that pulls no punches.

"I think they are going to tell the story like it is, and it is not going to be pleasant," she said. "Those nine firefighters should not have died, and we are lucky they didn't lose more."

The city is now trying to use the 19 minute window as an excuse. They claim so much occurred in the time span, with rapid fire development, that no department could have managed the fire. This is blatantly false.

Rather, it serves to focus on the lack of training, command structure and a complete lack of command training. The size of the fire didn't overwhelm the commanders. Instead, because there was no system in place to organize firefighters, it became freelance, run in the building, attack the fire mode. No risk analysis could be performed because no one had training in it.

Once the fire took hold because of poor decisions the outcome was sealed. This doesn't mean rapid fire development, coupled with 19 minutes, will always equal disaster. In fact, most often it does not. Large fires are fought daily around America. The difference, in many cases, is leadership, command, and a grasp of the fundamentals of firefighting principles and tactics by department command staff.

Paul Grimwood, a good friend of the author's, stated today in an interview with the Post & Courier:

Paul Grimwood, who served 35 years with fire departments in London and New York and is now an author and consultant on firefighting tactics, disagrees. He said commanders likely could have taken actions that would have saved lives if they had paid attention to signs of problems that night. He said a controlled evacuation should have been called long before the maydays were heard.

"There were clear fire behavior indicators; possibly some structural collapse warning indicators; and an obvious failure by on-scene commanders to act on the fact that an excessive number of firefighters had deployed inside the structure whilst the interior fire was rapidly developing, but their water supply was failing," he said.

Roger Yow summed up the entire question about accountability:

Roger Yow, a former Charleston fire captain and president of the local firefighters' union, said firefighter accountability was practically nonexistent. "That's why it was hours before they even realized it was nine guys."

Why is the fire chief still allowed to wear the uniform?

Firefighters Ask Where Other Local Chiefs Are?

Firefighters from five departments in the area have asked why their chief's haven't spoke out about the way the Charleston Fire Department is being led. While other departments throughout the area have long regarded the city as antiquated few chief officers have spoken up.

One can understand the reluctance if deaths hadn't occured. However nine men, nine firefighters, died in a fire being critiqued as one of the worst managed fires in memory. Why wouldn't other leaders, concerned about the safety of their own personnel plus the community at large, speak out about issues of such great importance?

Mutual Aid Department members Talk About Thomas, Sofa Super Store

The acting Battalion Chief who initially offered a thermal imager (the Mayor states the department not taking it was a mistake) and help to Charleston Fire Chief Rusty Thomas appeared on WCSC, Channel 5. Captain Morris Sills spoke with a reporter:

Captain Morris Sills was the acting Battalion Chief the night of the Sofa Super Store fire, and he says Chief Rusty Thomas wasn't interested in his department's help when they first arrived.

"Where did he need us," Captain Morris said. "And he said they didn't need us, they had it."

Sills says Chief Thomas changed his mind when the warehouse in back went up in flames, asking his department to keep the back of the building under control. Sills said he got his men on the project, but also offered more of his department's resources.

"So I said it's a thermal imaging camera," Sills said. "He said 'I know what it is, we don't need that.' I said OK."

Battalion Chief David Glover, one of the most respected chief officers in the entire county, discussed several items including his reaction to Mayor Joe Riley's assertion this was a "perfect storm" fire:

Battalion Chief Glover says what bothers him is how Mayor Joe Riley often calls the tragedy a perfect storm.

"This was the perfect storm?," Glover said. "No, this was brewing. This storm was brewing for a long time."

Glover says the biggest thing missing from the NIOSH report is how many times he and others in his department tried to warn the Charleston Fire Department about their old-fashioned ways.

"That we had warnings," Glover said. "We had warnings. And one of the guys that died worked on my shift. And he wanted to be a Charleston firefighter, I couldn't change that. And so he went. And now I went to his funeral and that really bothered me. That I had these discussions prior to this fire, we had these discussions. And the very thing we discussed is what got these guys."

Watch the video of the interview here.